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Red
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« Reply #50 on: Fri 28 August, 2009 - 02:59 pm »

Thats it, they say the bird numbers are not adversely affected, but it's the Canopy Birds that aren't affecrted badly, the Ground Birds take a real hammering. I would love to see this documentary they are going on about, I really hope it is screened because it might just make the public aware of the criminal poisoning that is going on.
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« Reply #51 on: Fri 28 August, 2009 - 03:10 pm »

Question - is it just birds or birds + other forest things, insects, frogs, etc?
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« Reply #52 on: Fri 28 August, 2009 - 03:35 pm »

frogs being one of the most sensitive of all  would surely take a hammering as well - but i don't suppose they consider them important enough to count, not to mention if they did count all the 'incidental' deaths they might be forced to stop



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« Reply #53 on: Fri 28 August, 2009 - 03:46 pm »

Is anyone but one lone protester and a couple of filmakers doing anything about it?
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« Reply #54 on: Fri 28 August, 2009 - 03:56 pm »

Question - is it just birds or birds + other forest things, insects, frogs, etc?
It's every living thing.

 
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« Reply #55 on: Fri 28 August, 2009 - 04:00 pm »

It is a bit like that anti smacking law and a lot of the other governmental things; the government refuses to listen.  The people are powerless.  People have protested full on for years but have mostly given up for which ever government of New Zealand is not a democracy but a 3 yearly dictatorship and will run roughshod over the will of the us commoners supposedly "for the people are too bloody dumb to know what is good for themselves".  

Short of mass civil disobedience, which I cannot see happening, as the apathy from repeatedly being beaten down and ignored by successive governments for many years now, which ever government will do what ever they bloody well please.

In fact  if you look closely enough at our government (whoever is in power, they are tarred with the same brush) and those of China, the similarities and parallels are kinda of frightening.

But all that is just my cynical personal opinion and I don't expect any one to listen to me any more than they do to anyone else and sometimes I wonder why I even bother to still care myself.

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« Reply #56 on: Fri 28 August, 2009 - 04:04 pm »

It is a bit like that anti smacking law and a lot of the other governmental things; the government refuses to listen.  The people are powerless.  People have protested full on for years but have mostly given up for which ever government of New Zealand is not a democracy but a 3 yearly dictatorship and will run roughshod over the will of the us commoners supposedly "for the people are too bloody dumb to know what is good for themselves".  

Short of mass civil disobedience, which I cannot see happening, as the apathy from repeatedly being beaten down and ignored by successive governments for many years now, which ever government will do what ever they bloody well please.

In fact  if you look closely enough at our government (whoever is in power, they are tarred with the same brush) and those of China, the similarities and parallels are kinda of frightening.

But all that is just my cynical personal opinion and I don't expect any one to listen to me any more than they do to anyone else and sometimes I wonder why I even bother to still care myself.




I have nothing to add ^^^  you said it all
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« Reply #57 on: Fri 28 August, 2009 - 05:51 pm »

They'll listen if you make them. Never underestimate the power of the people or the power of you.  Why do you think Maori get given a lot of what we demand? Because we dont shut up, are forever in their faces and we dont give up...and we certainly dont doubt ourselves.

This issue worries me, am finding out more about it.

Never stop caring collie
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« Reply #58 on: Fri 28 August, 2009 - 06:27 pm »

I understand that Forest & Bird, and a lot of farmers are voicing their protest at this all the time.


I think DOC has stated that some wrongful deaths justify the means 




Personally I'd like to see bounty put back on the possums and hunters making a small profit from killing them - the possum fur industry could surely absorb some more merchandise?
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« Reply #59 on: Fri 28 August, 2009 - 09:27 pm »

I understand that Forest & Bird, and a lot of farmers are voicing their protest at this all the time.

i havent heard much of it and im glued to news mediums

you know a protest would go down really well, this is how maori get their views across to those who matter who then start asking questions and answering them. protests are not radical avenues of disobediance and unrest and negative energy, what they really are is publicity to the issue.

you know people, if they get away with this case, they'll be spraying areas all over the country next 
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« Reply #60 on: Fri 28 August, 2009 - 09:32 pm »

they all ready do.
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« Reply #61 on: Sat 29 August, 2009 - 08:18 am »

A lot of the problem is because the majority of New Zealanders live in cities, it's not close enough to home for them to worry about so they don't care. DOC lies, the public buys their lies and they continue to do whatever the f**k they want with little or no public opposition.

It wouldn't surprise me if the poisoning in the Sea around Auckland and the Hauraki Gulf had something to do with DOC as well, it's known that they have poisoned waterways in the past.

Someone actually needs to sit up and take notice of guys like Chris Short, he has spent most of his life in the Bush, he knows the results of 1080. Why else would he be doing what he is doing? I know the guy, and his Brother, Vaughan (I used to work with him in Taupo, Welding) They're good guys.

If this Documentary ever gets screened (and if anyone actually takes the time to watch it), it will open a lot of people's eyes to some of the s**t our Government gets up to.
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« Reply #62 on: Sat 29 August, 2009 - 08:20 am »

Is anyone but one lone protester and a couple of filmakers doing anything about it?
Yes, there have been lots of protest marches etc, constant lobbying, but nothing seems to help.
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« Reply #63 on: Sat 29 August, 2009 - 08:26 am »

http://www.stop1080poison.com/index.html




I'll get off my Soapbox now........................
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« Reply #64 on: Sat 29 August, 2009 - 11:19 am »

Isn't 1080 1ZB eek
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« Reply #65 on: Sat 29 August, 2009 - 11:26 am »

This would be a worthy cause for you to get your teeth into Lulla.

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« Reply #66 on: Sat 29 August, 2009 - 11:38 am »

http://www.stop1080poison.com/index.html




I'll get off my Soapbox now........................
  No you won't. But I applaud you for your passion   Because it's an issue that effects the entire country.
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« Reply #67 on: Sat 29 August, 2009 - 08:36 pm »

Is anyone but one lone protester and a couple of filmakers doing anything about it?
Yes, there have been lots of protest marches etc, constant lobbying, but nothing seems to help.

enviromental issues always take a backseat to race relations issues 

A lot of the problem is because the majority of New Zealanders live in cities, it's not close enough to home for them to worry about so they don't care. DOC lies, the public buys their lies and they continue to do whatever the f**k they want with little or no public opposition.

It wouldn't surprise me if the poisoning in the Sea around Auckland and the Hauraki Gulf had something to do with DOC as well, it's known that they have poisoned waterways in the past.

Someone actually needs to sit up and take notice of guys like Chris Short, he has spent most of his life in the Bush, he knows the results of 1080. Why else would he be doing what he is doing? I know the guy, and his Brother, Vaughan (I used to work with him in Taupo, Welding) They're good guys.

If this Documentary ever gets screened (and if anyone actually takes the time to watch it), it will open a lot of people's eyes to some of the S**t our Government gets up to.

the real problem is that the majority dont care enough to do something about it...its those inherent  individualistic characteristics...because this is a problem for the majority...3 million plus strong and still next to no support. Come on nga tauiwi katoa, if the minority can save a mountain, so can the majority of you.
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« Reply #68 on: Sun 30 August, 2009 - 10:42 am »

1080  would probably kill moas if someone else hadn't first....
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« Reply #69 on: Sun 30 August, 2009 - 10:43 am »

Bloody talk radio. Nearly ends my life every time I hear it too
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« Reply #70 on: Sun 30 August, 2009 - 10:17 pm »

weighing up the effects of 1080 with the effects of TB in possums and cattle. result - 1080 is cheaper, thats why its in effect. as a nocturnal animal, very hard to hunt. setting traps is expensive and not very efficient. TB however is mutating and being picked up by other wildlife (including birds)and cattle, a livelyhood industry for the country. in 2007 it had the TB epidemic under control, but there must have been a surge for them to increase the dosge to rural land & forest. in reality, a TB epidemic could bring this country to its knees. 1080 is killing wildlife, but not on a scale or at an effect that risks economic harm, so...weigh it up for yourselves. birds or us?
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« Reply #71 on: Tue 1 September, 2009 - 05:28 pm »

good grief, you just swallowed that line hook and sinker didn't you?!


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« Reply #72 on: Tue 1 September, 2009 - 05:33 pm »

good grief, you just swallowed that line hook and sinker didn't you?!




who is the most reliable source of info, you, or the scientists? i dont like it, but com'on, weigh up the worst of 2 evils
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« Reply #73 on: Tue 1 September, 2009 - 05:35 pm »

good grief, you just swallowed that line hook and sinker didn't you?!




who is the most reliable source of info, you, or the scientists? i dont like it, but com'on, weigh up the worst of 2 evils
Spend some time in the Bush after a drop and you will see for yourself, their figures aren't accurate. They tell lies.
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« Reply #74 on: Tue 1 September, 2009 - 05:38 pm »

good grief, you just swallowed that line hook and sinker didn't you?!




who is the most reliable source of info, you, or the scientists? i dont like it, but com'on, weigh up the worst of 2 evils
Spend some time in the Bush after a drop and you will see for yourself, their figures aren't accurate. They tell lies.

Im surrounded by bush  eek  but thats besides the point, i know "they" lie, but until someone puts up another solution, there really is only a brick wall and a hard place...
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« Reply #75 on: Tue 1 September, 2009 - 05:40 pm »

its all good to moan and groan, but not putting any cards on the table or evaluating the options you are given doesnt help
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« Reply #76 on: Tue 1 September, 2009 - 05:41 pm »

Im surrounded by bush  eek  but thats besides the point, i know "they" lie, but until someone puts up another solution, there really is only a brick wall and a hard place...
There are solutions. They use the excuse that it is too expensive to put men into the remote areas but that's bulls**t. There wouldn't be a ridge or a gully in NZ that hasn't been walked over by a Deer Culler, and the Commercial possumers are (mostly) Contractors. Why do they use men, traps and Bait stations in the Waitakeres? Because it's too close to auckland and if the Public that go there saw the damage that 1080 did, there would be an enormous public outcry.
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« Reply #77 on: Tue 1 September, 2009 - 05:43 pm »

Im surrounded by bush  eek  but thats besides the point, i know "they" lie, but until someone puts up another solution, there really is only a brick wall and a hard place...
There are solutions. They use the excuse that it is too expensive to put men into the remote areas but that's bullS**t. There wouldn't be a ridge or a gully in NZ that hasn't been walked over by a Deer Culler, and the Commercial possumers are (mostly) Contractors. Why do they use men, traps and Bait stations in the Waitakeres? Because it's too close to auckland and if the Public that go there saw the damage that 1080 did, there would be an enormous public outcry.

do you know how much it would cost to use traps & labour as opposed to chemical spray?
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« Reply #78 on: Tue 1 September, 2009 - 05:46 pm »

Possum fur is a commercially viable product . Demand currently outstrips supply.  One of the many things that the human race does well is to hunt other species to extinction  for commercial gain, it's a simple matter of finding the right people to do it.
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« Reply #79 on: Tue 1 September, 2009 - 05:51 pm »

good grief, you just swallowed that line hook and sinker didn't you?!




who is the most reliable source of info, you, or the scientists? i dont like it, but com'on, weigh up the worst of 2 evils

the point is they don't have to use 1080 to deal with the possum problem.
they do not need to use that evil at all.

oh and it was not scientists they used to come up with their solution 
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« Reply #80 on: Tue 1 September, 2009 - 07:31 pm »

good grief, you just swallowed that line hook and sinker didn't you?!




who is the most reliable source of info, you, or the scientists? i dont like it, but com'on, weigh up the worst of 2 evils

the point is they don't have to use 1080 to deal with the possum problem.
they do not need to use that evil at all.

oh and it was not scientists they used to come up with their solution 


i never said "solution" i implied "cause" and I asked you for a proposed solution...seeing as you know so much about who is right and who is wrong.
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« Reply #81 on: Tue 1 September, 2009 - 09:47 pm »

Such sarcasm,

I would be a far more reliable source, for if it was up to me you can be damned sure I'd do the homework and then some.

Smart people, use smarter people.
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« Reply #82 on: Tue 1 September, 2009 - 09:50 pm »

Such sarcasm,

I would be a far more reliable source, for if it was up to me you can be damned sure I'd do the homework and then some.

Smart people, use smarter people.

then give me a solution, oh reliable source...
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« Reply #83 on: Tue 1 September, 2009 - 09:53 pm »

don't tempt me.
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« Reply #84 on: Tue 1 September, 2009 - 09:56 pm »

don't tempt me.

im serious...ive been researching it...1080, as it stands, is one of few efficient options...but i'll gladly hear yours
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« Reply #85 on: Tue 1 September, 2009 - 09:57 pm »

Rubber bands? eek
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« Reply #86 on: Tue 1 September, 2009 - 10:18 pm »

*waits patiently while collie researches potential solutions"

 
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« Reply #87 on: Tue 1 September, 2009 - 10:27 pm »

Then you'll be awaiting a while - considering you have truly listened to nothing said to you here. You have heard absolutely nothing anyone else has said about anything, except as anything other than a means to further your argument, sing your song; why do you think I'd carefully research and put together a workable plan, just to waste on your deaf ears?
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« Reply #88 on: Tue 1 September, 2009 - 10:37 pm »

Then you'll be awaiting a while - considering you have truly listened to nothing said to you here. You have heard absolutely nothing anyone else has said about anything, except as anything other than a means to further your argument, sing your song; why do you think I'd carefully research and put together a workable plan, just to waste on your deaf ears?

because thats what people do when they care and actually give a s**t about what they are against and what they think is right...because thats what people do when they put down other peoples ideas and by boasting about their reliable source of knowledge...because in debating thats usually how people retort

im listening collie, you know i am
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« Reply #89 on: Tue 1 September, 2009 - 10:45 pm »

i told my mother that this concerned me, and as usual she just said, find a solution...i havent found one safer and as efficient than 1080 yet, but am looking deeper into it. 1080 is killing birds its true, but its not a disease, not like TB...the likelyhood of birds increasing in population after the effects of 1080 are expected, whereas the effects of TB if unattended, will spread rpidly among wildlife and cattle.
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« Reply #90 on: Tue 1 September, 2009 - 10:48 pm »

Lulla, I've got together with  the maoris, greenpeace and a rabid well known artie greenie, a local community, a lawyer, a high up media person, got them all working together and ousted a Multinational Oil Company, no mean feat... if sufficiently motivated, if I want to do something, I will and I know how but generally the personal cost is far far too high.

If I seriously thought you would take back what I put together and mobilised your maori backing I would.

Though quite frankly if maori cared as much about their land as we are led to believe, you wouldnt need someone like me to lead them.



and to be completely honest, I never want to fight another fight like that one.
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« Reply #91 on: Tue 1 September, 2009 - 10:55 pm »

Lulla, I've got together with  the maoris, greenpeace and a rabid well known artie greenie, a local community, a lawyer, a high up media person, got them all working together and ousted a Multinational Oil Company, no mean feat... if sufficiently motivated, if I want to do something, I will and I know how but generally the personal cost is far far too high.

If I seriously thought you would take back what I put together and mobilised your maori backing I would.

Though quite frankly if maori cared as much about their land as we are led to believe, you wouldnt need someone like me to lead them.



and to be completely honest, I never want to fight another fight like that one.

who said anything about Maori  eek  I want to know for myself

sovereignty groups are usually transfixed on that one ultimate goal

i want to know what you would propose to do, in the event that it becomes something that i would need to do more than worry about
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« Reply #92 on: Tue 1 September, 2009 - 11:03 pm »

see post 88
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« Reply #93 on: Tue 1 September, 2009 - 11:12 pm »

see post 88

so i take it you dont have a proposal or a more efficient solution...

you could have just said so before

if you want to make a difference, you've got to have a plan and an alternative
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« Reply #94 on: Tue 1 September, 2009 - 11:15 pm »




no its that I see telling you is a waste of effort, big difference... now I've had enough of this game for one day... you're back on my ignore list.
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« Reply #95 on: Tue 1 September, 2009 - 11:22 pm »




no its that I see telling you is a waste of effort, big difference... now I've had enough of this game for one day... you're back on my ignore list.

you lead me on a chase that i think im going to get some valuable info out of and then you dont come up with the goods...what else am i suppose to think but that you were all shet to begin with? 

i'll come up with an alternative, if there is one, and i'll share it with you collie...

i dont get you, first you tell me to "get into the cause" and then a couple of days later when i ask you for some ideas you ignore it...weirdo

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« Reply #96 on: Tue 1 September, 2009 - 11:24 pm »

oh for goodness sake - you want me to do all the work for you and lead you by the hand??

and because I wont play the game by your rules start calling me a weirdo?


but you do that, you get thinking and really look into it.  I'd love to hear it, then I might take you seriously
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« Reply #97 on: Tue 1 September, 2009 - 11:29 pm »

oh for goodness sake - you want me to do all the work for you and lead you by the hand??

well no, but id like to know what you would think is a more efficient & environmentally safe alternative
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« Reply #98 on: Tue 1 September, 2009 - 11:35 pm »

Efficient and environmentally safe? Not practical, one or the other.

If 1080 was anywhere near environmentally safe, the rest of the world would be using it too.
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« Reply #99 on: Tue 1 September, 2009 - 11:38 pm »

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