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Author Topic: Abortions  (Read 7073 times)
Marwyn
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« on: Wed 9 June, 2010 - 03:19 pm »

Im pretty much neutral on this matter, but Id like to hear others opinions on this subject.

Should a female tell the father of the baby that she is going to abort?

Should there be a new bylaw where the father has to sign consent for the baby to be aborted and if he doesnt, he has to be the one to raise it If the mother still doesnt want it.?

Should the father have any rights at all?


This does not include pregnancy through rape or incest.
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« Reply #1 on: Wed 9 June, 2010 - 03:43 pm »

woohoo....a real can of worms there.

can I add a question or two?

If the male parent would rather abort, should his wishes be of equal status?

And if said male parent is not allowed a say in the process, should he be liable for the ongoing cost of raising his unwanted child?

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« Reply #2 on: Wed 9 June, 2010 - 03:44 pm »

What about 'what the child wants'? eek
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« Reply #3 on: Wed 9 June, 2010 - 04:00 pm »

Rather difficult to ascertain that while the 'child' is still at the 'slightly runny little blob' stage.
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PaganRaven
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« Reply #4 on: Wed 9 June, 2010 - 04:13 pm »

serious subject, but  @ the penguin


danny don't be silly or you'll lower the tone of the discussion eek



I think its a very tricky subject, with so many grey areas there might not be any straight black or white to be seen 
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« Reply #5 on: Wed 9 June, 2010 - 04:22 pm »



Should the father have any rights at all?


Much has been made over the last 40 years of 'womens' rights. For equality to be credible, it has to mean equality in everything.
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Marwyn
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« Reply #6 on: Wed 9 June, 2010 - 04:24 pm »

woohoo....a real can of worms there.

can I add a question or two?

If the male parent would rather abort, should his wishes be of equal status?

And if said male parent is not allowed a say in the process, should he be liable for the ongoing cost of raising his unwanted child?



Very good questions also...

Ok, Ill reword it.....

New bylaw that both parents have to sign consent .
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« Reply #7 on: Wed 9 June, 2010 - 04:25 pm »

How was my question silly? EVERY single woman who says 'it's my body to do with as I wish' was once a foetus that could have been aborted or not. EVERY foetus that doesn't get aborted or suffer some natural problem grows to be a person with a right to life themselves eek
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« Reply #8 on: Wed 9 June, 2010 - 04:35 pm »

The law is rather messy there Dan. A person doesn't have full rights to determine their own life.If you chose to terminate your own life, the authorities would do their best to stop you.........however it appears that the 'legal' definition of life runs on a sliding scale from the moment you are conceived up until the moment you are born [and to a lesser degree, until you turn 18.]
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« Reply #9 on: Wed 9 June, 2010 - 04:38 pm »

In a lot of countries if someone beats a woman and kills her unborn baby they can be done for murder. How then does abortion mean it's ok to end the life in there? Sounds really messy eek
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« Reply #10 on: Wed 9 June, 2010 - 04:44 pm »

Yup, that's one of the obvious paradoxes. Over the years, the debate has become more riddled with cliches the Trademe Opinions. Unfortunately, the issue is so complex and so divisive that it would take a very wise and brave woman [most likely] to come up with a set of values that everyone can agree on.
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PaganRaven
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« Reply #11 on: Wed 9 June, 2010 - 04:51 pm »

What about 'what the child wants'? eek

the 'implication' in this statement means (okay, to me, maybe not anyone else) that you were referring to asking the foetus for its opinion on the matter


k? eek
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« Reply #12 on: Wed 9 June, 2010 - 04:53 pm »

I was making the point that - in time - the foetus will have an opinion eek
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PaganRaven
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« Reply #13 on: Wed 9 June, 2010 - 04:55 pm »

but by then its a moot point for the foetus, isn't it 

unless you are going to contact the spirit of said foetus to ask its opinion of being aborted?
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« Reply #14 on: Wed 9 June, 2010 - 04:58 pm »

Geeze ... what I mean is, that instead of treating a foetus as a NOTHING because of the point of the timeline it happens to be on at the moment a decision is made, if the obvious future is allowed to intrude (ie, that unless something goes wrong that foetus will become a person with full rights) perhaps another way of approaching such issues could be arrived at eek
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« Reply #15 on: Wed 9 June, 2010 - 05:07 pm »

well perhaps you could have stated that in the first place 

you were as clear as a cup of coffee
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« Reply #16 on: Wed 9 June, 2010 - 05:15 pm »

And as stupid
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PaganRaven
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« Reply #17 on: Wed 9 June, 2010 - 05:25 pm »

don't flatter yourself 




marwyn, the concept of both parents signing the abortion agreement is interesting...what happens if the father is unknown? or refuses to even acknowledge they are the father? would this create a whole lot more court cases? and by the time they went through the system, it would very likely be way too late to do an abortion anyway  eek
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Marwyn
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« Reply #18 on: Wed 9 June, 2010 - 06:07 pm »

don't flatter yourself 




marwyn, the concept of both parents signing the abortion agreement is interesting...what happens if the father is unknown? or refuses to even acknowledge they are the father? would this create a whole lot more court cases? and by the time they went through the system, it would very likely be way too late to do an abortion anyway  eek

The the woman needs to walk around with the scarlet letter on her clothes, instead of an "A", It can be "S" for Slut, likewise with the father that wont acknowledge.
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« Reply #19 on: Wed 9 June, 2010 - 06:18 pm »

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Qh2sWSVRrmo&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Qh2sWSVRrmo&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>
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« Reply #20 on: Wed 9 June, 2010 - 06:51 pm »

you tube clip aborted.
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Ecky Thump
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« Reply #21 on: Wed 9 June, 2010 - 07:01 pm »

In the 3 times my ex had abortions never once was my opinion even bought into consideration.
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« Reply #22 on: Wed 9 June, 2010 - 07:01 pm »

Nopie - click on the blue bit
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PaganRaven
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« Reply #23 on: Wed 9 June, 2010 - 07:01 pm »

 Brought to you by dab
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Marwyn
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« Reply #24 on: Wed 9 June, 2010 - 07:02 pm »

In the 3 times my ex had abortions never once was my opinion even bought into consideration.

How did you feel about that?
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« Reply #25 on: Wed 9 June, 2010 - 07:04 pm »

In the 3 times my ex had abortions never once was my opinion even bought into consideration.

How did you feel about that?

Can't say I was overly happy about it. The first two abortions were unknown to me until we separated
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« Reply #26 on: Wed 9 June, 2010 - 07:06 pm »

Although looking back now did she abort because none of them were mine?
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Marwyn
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« Reply #27 on: Wed 9 June, 2010 - 07:17 pm »

So another question is......

If the couple have not long split up and then she finds out shes preggers, should she tell the ex shes pregnant and getting it aborted it or shut her mouth?
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Ecky Thump
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« Reply #28 on: Wed 9 June, 2010 - 07:18 pm »

So another question is......

If the couple have not long split up and then she finds out shes preggers, should she tell the ex shes pregnant and getting it aborted it or shut her mouth?

Bloody hell are you documenting my past history with this sort of s**t or something? eek 
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Marwyn
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« Reply #29 on: Wed 9 June, 2010 - 07:45 pm »

So another question is......

If the couple have not long split up and then she finds out shes preggers, should she tell the ex shes pregnant and getting it aborted it or shut her mouth?

Bloody hell are you documenting my past history with this sort of s**t or something? eek 

Seeing as I was posting in this thread before you said about your ex, I would say.......No.
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« Reply #30 on: Wed 9 June, 2010 - 07:55 pm »

Geeze ... what I mean is, that instead of treating a foetus as a NOTHING because of the point of the timeline it happens to be on at the moment a decision is made, if the obvious future is allowed to intrude (ie, that unless something goes wrong that foetus will become a person with full rights) perhaps another way of approaching such issues could be arrived at eek

so in the case where continuing the pregnancy would kill the mother, do we allow the foetus to develop, grow up, attain the age of majority and then ask them if they would like to make a decision as to whether to continue the pregnancy?
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« Reply #31 on: Wed 9 June, 2010 - 08:17 pm »

Geeze ... what I mean is, that instead of treating a foetus as a NOTHING because of the point of the timeline it happens to be on at the moment a decision is made, if the obvious future is allowed to intrude (ie, that unless something goes wrong that foetus will become a person with full rights) perhaps another way of approaching such issues could be arrived at eek

so in the case where continuing the pregnancy would kill the mother, do we allow the foetus to develop, grow up, attain the age of majority and then ask them if they would like to make a decision as to whether to continue the pregnancy?
That's not what I was thinking of, as in most cases babies aren't aborted to save the mother. by far. So I'm not trying to work out a hypothesis based on a shard of a percentage of what the cases would be about. That's like trying to hypothesize about the Nazi shower experiments on the basis that a small percentage of the Jews in there might have developed cancer and died slowly and painfully at some later date
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Ecky Thump
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« Reply #32 on: Wed 9 June, 2010 - 08:26 pm »

So another question is......

If the couple have not long split up and then she finds out shes preggers, should she tell the ex shes pregnant and getting it aborted it or shut her mouth?

Bloody hell are you documenting my past history with this sort of s**t or something? eek 

Seeing as I was posting in this thread before you said about your ex, I would say.......No.

Nevermind was just that question................I've had that happen too
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« Reply #33 on: Wed 9 June, 2010 - 08:34 pm »

too.many.grey.areas 
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« Reply #34 on: Wed 9 June, 2010 - 08:51 pm »

JJ has two grey areas, one toppie, one ...
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« Reply #35 on: Wed 9 June, 2010 - 08:51 pm »

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« Reply #36 on: Wed 9 June, 2010 - 08:55 pm »

don't look, ethel! 
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« Reply #37 on: Wed 9 June, 2010 - 09:16 pm »

Personally, I think it's the womans choice, it's her body.  I don't think the father has the right either way to tell the woman what to do - could be a gray area with child support, but if the father doesn't want the possibility of that that happening in the future, don't have unprotected sex(or any sex) until you're ready to take responsibility for any outcome.

there's a lot or poverty in this world too, sometimes abortion is the responsible option rather than creating another mouth to feed

re being done for murder for killing an unborn child, that's probably trimester based, once it's legally considered a human, I doubt somebody would get done for murder for causing a women to lose a 5 week old foetus
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« Reply #38 on: Wed 9 June, 2010 - 09:27 pm »

Sooo ... there's no objective right or wrong in this issue? eek
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« Reply #39 on: Wed 9 June, 2010 - 11:28 pm »

personal choice! the womans

be nice if the man was ok with it but really doesnt matter, what ever she chooses, an un wanted pregnancy has life long ramifications, which ever choice is made, be that abortion, go through the pregnancy and give the baby away or keep it.

it never gets forgotten, which ever way.
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« Reply #40 on: Wed 9 June, 2010 - 11:32 pm »

personal choice! the womans

be nice if the man was ok with it but really doesnt matter, what ever she chooses, an un wanted pregnancy has life long ramifications, which ever choice is made, be that abortion, go through the pregnancy and give the baby away or keep it.

it never gets forgotten, which ever way.

Ok, but should she tell him or shut her mouth?
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« Reply #41 on: Wed 9 June, 2010 - 11:40 pm »

HER choice.
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« Reply #42 on: Wed 9 June, 2010 - 11:49 pm »

The law is rather messy there Dan. A person doesn't have full rights to determine their own life.If you chose to terminate your own life, the authorities would do their best to stop you.........however it appears that the 'legal' definition of life runs on a sliding scale from the moment you are conceived up until the moment you are born [and to a lesser degree, until you turn 18.]

As it stands a foetus is not a viable "baby aka human with rights" until it hits the 28 week mark. Prior to 28 weeks (even if its 27 weeks and 2 days) a birth/death does not have to be registered.

If the baby /feotus survives it is at the discretion of the medical people as to what medical intervention is provided.
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« Reply #43 on: Thu 10 June, 2010 - 08:38 am »

that's the 'technical' point of view...what about those who have other belief systems and perhaps see it as a baby from dot? or belief its just a shell until the sould slips in (which could be at any stage), or believe in pre-destiny (so that no matter the choice, it was already known and accepted by the baby)

 
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« Reply #44 on: Thu 10 June, 2010 - 08:42 am »

Too bad, HER choice
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« Reply #45 on: Thu 10 June, 2010 - 09:19 am »

possibly. but it also seems to mean that its not a great relationship if she can't or won't even think about discussing it with the father.
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« Reply #46 on: Thu 10 June, 2010 - 09:38 am »

Too bad, HER choice
On what basis?
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« Reply #47 on: Thu 10 June, 2010 - 06:46 pm »

Too bad, HER choice
On what basis?

On the basis that it's HER body
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« Reply #48 on: Thu 10 June, 2010 - 06:52 pm »

Yeah? What about the body inside her.
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« Reply #49 on: Fri 11 June, 2010 - 02:05 am »

Is it a body if it can't sustain itself independently?
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